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Post by XuLiang on Nov 1, 2022 0:56:27 GMT
I'm not so sure about Corwin, but how about Oberon? Being born of Dworkin and the Unicorn and the Unicorn is the physical manifestation of the Pattern in the Jewel, right? That seems a bit more likely than Corwin in my humble opinion.
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Post by Hammett on Nov 1, 2022 19:42:34 GMT
This brings up an interesting part of the backstory of Amber.
Apparently Oberon is the son of Dworkin and the Unicorn. And the Unicorn is supposedly a manifestation of the Pattern and/or the jewel of judgement. Yet Oberon was also apparently born and raised in the Courts of Chaos before Dworkin made the Pattern and Amber. It is also said that the unicorn is what stole the eye of the Logrus/serpent and that is the jewel of judgement. That would mean that:
A) the unicorn is a manifestation of the Jewel and not the Pattern, or it is not actually a manifest of either, and it is it's own entity, like the serpent/Logrus is. As it was around before the Pattern and Amber were created.
B) The unicorn, even though the jewel is the eye of the logrus, was able to manifest while the eye was still in the serpent, because it had to be free to "steal itself" according to the legend. That seems unlikely, that the eye of the serpent would be working against the serpent to get itself stolen. So, that also implies that the Unicorn is it's own entity and not actually manifested by the Jewel, eye, or whatever.
So, that would mean that The Unicorn and Serpent were long time enemies. The Serpent was also the Logrus, and chaos ruled the universe and all shadows. The Unicorn didn't like that and found an ally in Dworkin, a chaos lord who wanted something more, something real and stable. They had a kid, Oberon, then the Unicorn with Dworkin's help, stole the eye of the serpent which is also the jewel of judgment. They fled deep into shadow, and Dworkin, with presumably the unicorn's help, walked the Pattern in the jewel and created the Primal Pattern.
So that makes everything seem to make sense, from what I remember and know of the novels.
Unicorn and Serpent are two ancient entities. Perhaps both created in/out of the Abyss. The Serpent created or became the Logrus and that created all the infinite shadows of chaos, built from the stuff spewing out of the Abyss. The Unicorn didn't like that, but had no way to stop or challenge the Serpent until it met Dworkin. Dworkin was a real rebel and anarchist in Chaos in that he wanted something that wasn't chaos. He wanted something that was stable and ordered. The Unicorn found Dworkin and influenced him, pushed him to act. They had a kid, Oberon. Unicorn and Dworkin stole the eye of the Serpent because the Unicorn knew (or believed) that it could be used to create an area of stability and order. They fled into deep shadows with Oberon. Dworkin used the eye, now called the Jewel of judgement, to inscribe the Primal Pattern. Order and Chaos clashed across all the shadows, but eventually settled down into what is (was) the current balance of things in Shadow. At least until Corwin inscribed another Primal Pattern, which is shaking everything up again as the balance between two centers of order, and one of chaos all collide until eventually a balance will naturally occur. Thus all the shadow storms and shadow disruptions and issues.
But, people on all sides, plus other sources of power, are using this disruption to the pervious natural order of things, to try and gain power and alter the eventual outcome to one that benefits them most.
This also makes sense (that the Unicorn is its own entity and not a manifestation of the jewel or Pattern) because we never saw in the novels a Corwin Pattern Unicorn, which in theory should exist if the Pattern or Jewel manifest the Unicorn, then Corwin's Pattern should have one of its own (or something similar to it).
Now the "Under Shadow", which Merlin found himself in, is I assume where the Unicorn and Serpent actually live/exist. It would actually be the "real" reality and Shadows are just the reflection or byproduct of what goes on there. SO it is not actually "Under Shadow" but rather the actual universe/primal plane of existence.
(will add more later)
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Nov 1, 2022 20:26:53 GMT
My head canon is that as the Logrus shapes the person, the person shapes the Logrus.
The Logrus is an n-dimensional-dynamic structure but conforms to you as you conform to it.
Dworkin is able to take his path through the Logrus and transcribe it as a two dimensional Pattern. His personal segment of the Logrus.
Like DNA, it closely matches his offspring to a few generations.
But each generation will have a more difficult passage through the Pattern than the previous generation.
The particular difficulty in passing through the three veils are a two dimensional representation of moving through the third (or more) dimensions.
I believe that each sucessive generation should face more veils (in prime numbers?) 3, 5, 7 veils...
Because Oberon re-transcibed the Pattern, he should have made it easier for his offspring. And the next. But the generation after that will be in trouble unless they get a Pattern transcribed by a closer direct ancestor.
That's how I see it working 'vertically' through the generations.
Regarding Corwin's Pattern, (horizontally) Corwin's birth siblings shouldn't have much difficulty with it. Half-siblings will have more difficulty, and so on with nephews and nieces.
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Nov 1, 2022 20:36:12 GMT
The Pattern is a piece of the Logrus as the Jewel is a piece of the Serpent
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Post by Katerina on Nov 1, 2022 20:44:06 GMT
This brings up an interesting part of the backstory of Amber. Apparently Oberon is the son of Dworkin and the Unicorn. And the Unicorn is supposedly a manifestation of the Pattern and/or the jewel of judgement. Yet Oberon was also apparently born and raised in the Courts of Chaos before Dworkin made the Pattern and Amber. It is also said that the unicorn is what stole the eye of the Logrus/serpent and that is the jewel of judgement. That would mean that: A) the unicorn is a manifestation of the Jewel and not the Pattern, or it is not actually a manifest of either, and it is it's own entity, like the serpent/Logrus is. As it was around before the Pattern and Amber were created. B) The unicorn, even though the jewel is the eye of the logrus, was able to manifest while the eye was still in the serpent, because it had to be free to "steal itself" according tot he legend. That seems unlikely, that the eye of the serpent would be working against the serpent to get itself stolen. So, that also implies that the Unicorn is it's own entity and not actually manifested by the Jewel, eye, or whatever. So, that would mean that The Unicorn and Serpent were long time enemies. The Serpent was also the Logrus, and chaos ruled the universe and all shadows. The Unicorn didn't like that and found an ally in Dworkin, a chaos lord who wanted something more, something real and stable. They had a kid, Oberon, then the Unicorn with Dworkin's help, stole the eye of the serpent which is also the jewel of judgment. They fled deep into shadow, and Dworkin, with presumably the unicorn's help, walked the Pattern in the jewel and created the Primal Pattern. (will add more later) I agree with this line of thinking. One of the latter stories seems to give personification to the Pattern and the Logrus and I think it is likely that the Logrus defeated the Pattern (and Order) some time before the Unicorn found a way to bring it back by turning Dworkin to her side and creating a new Order (Pattern). One wonders what the remains of the old verion of order. Did Chaos dissolve it with a purple disinfectant and flush it down the drains, never to be seen again ... until now! Crazy Kat thoery number #26 |
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Post by Brian on Nov 1, 2022 20:52:23 GMT
The Pattern is a piece of the Logrus as the Jewel is a piece of the Serpent Mine is the Jewel is the Order that exists within chaos |
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Nov 1, 2022 22:14:24 GMT
I think the last few posts here deserve their own thread.
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Post by Admin on Nov 1, 2022 23:26:42 GMT
If one Serpent eye creates order then the other must cause chaos. So the universe was balanced until the unicorn took one eye. That caused the Serpent to be chaos and around him the Courts were formed.
Much later Dworkin inscribed the Pattern.
I guess.
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Post by Dionisia on Nov 1, 2022 23:29:02 GMT
Waits for Kat her savior of the universe growing inside Dio, Theory
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Post by Hammett on Nov 2, 2022 0:06:42 GMT
If one Serpent eye creates order then the other must cause chaos. So the universe was balanced until the unicorn took one eye. That caused the Serpent to be chaos and around him the Courts were formed. Much later Dworkin inscribed the Pattern. I guess. Unless both eyes constantly saw infinite chaos swirling around making and altering each shadow, but when the one eye was removed it "died"/froze so all the images swirling around in it also froze, making all the infinite facets of patterns displayed in the eye (now the jewel). The patterns are just frozen/unmoving twists and turns of the Logrus captured in the "dead" eye of the serpent. Dworkin traced out one of those patterns and that became the primal pattern. |
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Nov 2, 2022 0:28:05 GMT
If one Serpent eye creates order then the other must cause chaos. So the universe was balanced until the unicorn took one eye. That caused the Serpent to be chaos and around him the Courts were formed. Much later Dworkin inscribed the Pattern. I guess. Ugh. Boring. Here I go, arguing the GM. Serpent, Logrus and Courts of Chaos where all well established when Dworkin came along. The one thing I got from the first Chronicles is that the Courts of Chaos are physically chaotic but the society is very orderly. Inversely, Amber and surrounding Shadows are very orderly but their society -> Amber Royalty <- are chaotic. That's the core of all the ADRPG Throne Wars. The civility of the Courts Is demonstrated when Lord Borel confronts Corwin. Borel wanted a fair duel and chaotic Corwin fought dirty. It wasn't until the Second Chronicles (Merlin Cycle) that the Courts of Chaos became a back stabbing blood bath. The balance of order and chaos in the Serpent isn't/wasn't a thing. ===== In Chaos, each house has a bit of the Logrus in the form of a Logrus Master (Or two) that they use to create their own version of order. Their 'Way'. All those little floating islands of order hovering over the Abyss are stitched together with Logrus Tendrils and Filmies. Each 'Way' is a bit of reality and some layers of Shadow. What Dworkin did is create his own personal Static Logrus and walled it inside multitudes of Shadows. Hoarding more than his fair share of the power. |
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Post by Brian on Nov 2, 2022 0:29:46 GMT
If one Serpent eye creates order then the other must cause chaos. So the universe was balanced until the unicorn took one eye. That caused the Serpent to be chaos and around him the Courts were formed. Much later Dworkin inscribed the Pattern. I guess. Ugh. Boring. Here I go, arguing the GM. Serpent, Logrus and Courts of Chaos where all well established when Dworkin came along. The one thing I got from the first Chronicles is that the Courts of Chaos are physically chaotic but the society is very orderly. Inversely, Amber and surrounding Shadows are very orderly but their society -> Amber Royalty <- are chaotic. That's the core of all the ADRPG Throne Wars. The civility of the Courts Is demonstrated when Lord Borel confronts Corwin. Borel wanted a fair duel and chaotic Corwin fought dirty. It wasn't until the Second Chronicles (Merlin Cycle) that the Courts of Chaos became a back stabbing blood bath. The balance of order and chaos in the Serpent isn't/wasn't a thing. ===== In Chaos, each house has a bit of the Logrus in the form of a Logrus Master (Or two) that they use to create their own version of order. Their 'Way'. All those little floating islands of order hovering over the Abyss are stitched together with Logrus Tendrils and Filmies. Each 'Way' is a bit of reality and some layers of Shadow. What Dworkin did is create his own personal Static Logrus and walled it inside multitudes of Shadows. Hoarding more than his fair share of the power. And Merlin is a less reliable narrator then Corwin |
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Post by Dionisia on Nov 2, 2022 0:37:13 GMT
Wasn't it also stated in the books that the Barimen family is actually a house within the courts of Chaos and that Dworkin just sauntered off one day doing his thing creating the Pattern.
So that means indeed the courts of Chaos already existed until one cooky dwarf named Dworkin decided to fuck with the general existence..
He just needed a tool.for that or more a catalyst and knowing the Serpent holds power and also in its eyes.. poking one out via unicorn to get things done is a crazy but logical step.
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Nov 2, 2022 1:24:47 GMT
Yes, that's my understanding. Amber is really BarimenWay or DworkinWay.
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Post by Dirk on Nov 2, 2022 2:19:35 GMT
Meow.
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