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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 9:33:18 GMT
Hey everyone,
As some of you may have noticed, i'm not a native English speaker. I discovered Zelazny's work in the '90s, and the Erick Wujcik's game later. The french versions. As the years went by, i realized that these versions were far less than accurate. And sometimes even stupid. So two months ago i started out to retranslate in detail the important works. But here it is, some choices about terms are not always easy, when it comes to idioms or synonyms. So here's a topic to discuss with you and ask my questions that will probably seem very silly. Thank you in advance for your help.
The Pattern : the Pattern, in french, has been translated as "hopscotch" from the begining, even in the Chronicles. The word is "Marelle". If i understand the idea of something drawn on the floor and an ascent toward a final goal, the choice is rather weird. I'd like to go to something more specific. Three words could achieve this, but i'm not sure which one is the best match: "Modèle" like a template, a model. "Motif" like a design. "Schéma", like a diagram. Your thoughs?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2020 16:11:22 GMT
I like schema.
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Post by Hammett on Apr 21, 2020 17:49:28 GMT
I also like Schema, but I think Motif might be more appropriate in this case as the Pattern is kind of like a "grand design" for the universe with the Logrus being anti-design in a way. Plus since we now know that the Pattern has a will and personality of its own and its own plans, design or Motif feels (to me) like a better fit. Also is Motif also a root word for Motive? If so, that also lends it strength to being the better choice as the Pattern does seems to have plans and motives of its own.
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Post by Admin on Apr 21, 2020 18:02:44 GMT
Since Dworkin was an artist and inscribed the Pattern, I would choose a word that sounds more artistic than technical so Motif seems the best choice to me.
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Post by Admin on Apr 21, 2020 18:13:29 GMT
Or how about mandala? It seems to fit what the Pattern is and might have been what Z had in mind when he was writing the books.
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Post by Hammett on Apr 21, 2020 18:38:45 GMT
I like the mandala idea.
Isn't the Pattern that Dworkin inscribed (and Corwin's for that matter) one of an infinite number of patterns contained and already existing in the jewel of judgement? So when they make a pattern they are really imprinting/copying/inflicting/imposing its design into/onto the real world?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2020 4:13:40 GMT
Mandala is great. But is it french?
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Post by Brennon on Apr 22, 2020 4:57:15 GMT
When you read Plato, and learn the idea of the "ideal forms", what word is used for those designs? The Pattern is the ideal from which all other things take their shape. Like Platonic forms, it covers a concept, and maybe the word or words used for Plato will work for Amber.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2020 6:52:43 GMT
Thanks all, some great ideas here.
Mandala has been popular in France for a few years. Like Sudoku. Those words were pretty unfamiliar before. Though the idea is good, it's an indian name, and like "Marelle" refers to a specific thing that doesn't evoke anything except this specific thing. Which is my actual issue with "Marelle": I always think of Corwin throwing a rock and hopping on one foot when he walks the Pattern... Schema is probably the most descriptive but rather technical, as you pointed out. I liked "Modèle" because it sounds almost the same as "Marelle" to the hear, and would have then stayed in line with the orginal translation. But there's a good point on "Motif", for the reasons you all showed up: it belongs to the artistic register, plus it is the term used for "Motive" in english. A "Motif" is a design, or a cause, or a reason, which bring us back to motivation and scheming.
the reason for his complaint : le motif de sa plainte
no cause for concern : pas de motif d'inquiétude.
the pattern of this cloth : le motif de ce tissu.
Does that sounds good for you?
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Post by Brennon on May 3, 2020 1:37:26 GMT
Oui And no, I didn't catch that english wasn't your native language until you mentioned it. I know far too many people who can't use grammatical or properly-spelled English (or the American dialect) for your mistakes to have registered. Yes, there are a few mistakes, but they are within normal parameters.
PS- I would love to find someone to practice french with. It's been years since my high school language classes.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2020 19:50:39 GMT
I read this thread and the only thing that goes through my mind is a mental image of Corwin doing to hopscotch to get his memories back...
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2020 14:50:33 GMT
Oh gods. I studied French for three years in high school and sucked at it. I think my grades were C, C, D. It was hard for me to get past the teacher saying every week "Here's the rule... Now here are a dozen exceptions to that rule... And you just have to memorize them." And must every word have a silent letter? Is that like a law in France? No new word unless there is at least one silent letter. My father, though, was fluent in it and understood it his whole life.
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Post by Brennon on May 6, 2020 21:17:59 GMT
lol I took 3 years in high school, too. I ended up doing first year French for the easy A on my college transcript, since I still needed a foreign culture requirement. (I went to a liberal-arts school) I had Latin and Hebrew, (which I was not very good at), but I used those for religion and philosophy requirements.. (>.<) I can't say I'm any good at any of them, really, but I did once pass a test for 1st grade (grammar school, about 5-6 year olds) comprehension in French.. 20+ years ago.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2020 23:56:44 GMT
I would love to find someone to practice french with. It's been years since my high school language classes.
With great pleasure. For that Dorian and Brennon have to meet first and I haven't defined yet if my character can swim. "Here's the rule... Now here are a dozen exceptions to that rule... And you just have to memorize them." And must every word have a silent letter? That is so true. French is a complicated language. You have to memorize a lot of exceptions. Just because. The worst cases are words with different meanings that sound exactly the same. For an example, that's the way Cinderella's vair shoes [« vair »] became glass shoes [« verre »] over time. |
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Post by Brennon on May 8, 2020 19:17:55 GMT
I would love to find someone to practice french with. It's been years since my high school language classes.
With great pleasure. For that Dorian and Brennon have to meet first and I haven't defined yet if my character can swim. I don't know if that would be necessary, we could always converse out of character via private messages. I'm not sure my French could stand up to an in-character discussion, though Brennon could probably manage a number of languages just fine. |
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