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Post by Hammett on Feb 27, 2023 4:51:06 GMT
I just read the Abyss power for the first time in decades(?) Wow, I thought some of the other power descriptions were vague, the Abyss write up has to be one of the worst they ever did for this system.
I don't envy Cody or the GM for trying to make sense of that.
Even the costs are weird. So it is 50 points for Basic Abyss power, or if you already have Shape-shift it is only and extra 15 points? Or is it that it is 50 points for Abyss power. If you have Shape shifting you can spend an extra 15 points to allow "Abyss Shapeshifting" so, 50 points in Abyss, and 35 shapeshift +15 points in the Abyss Shapeshifting addon). And then another 25-30 points for Advanced Abyss power, where the power goes from doing almost nothing, to being the most deadly over-powerful power in the game.
Heck, my interpretation of the rules the Abyss power doesn't allow travel between shadows with it.
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Feb 27, 2023 5:54:03 GMT
I'm trying to role play it out.
Travel through the Abyss is like a Hell Ride.
More refined/gradual Shadow movement is done through Shadow Tunneling which is more time and energy consuming.
I agree that some of the powers are over the top.
I just want to play it as having Logrus but with the added access to/through the Abyss.
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Feb 27, 2023 5:58:09 GMT
Points paid are equal to Logrus + ShapeShifting + some extra points for Abyss travel.
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Post by Katerina on Feb 27, 2023 8:27:31 GMT
Whereabouts is this Abyss power? I couldn't see it on a quick skim of Shadow Knight.
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Post by Eivor on Feb 27, 2023 8:59:45 GMT
p249 of the first book. An afterthought really.
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Feb 27, 2023 15:30:05 GMT
It comes at the end of the book where it describes a campaign where Brand comes out of the Abyss even more powerful than he was before.
The description is vague and basically describes having exalted powers.
It's NOT where Cody is at. He'd still have to learn Trump before being able to do the Trump stuff described.
The idea is: Instead of essayist the Logrus, Cody was 'Baptised' in the Abyss.
The Logrus draws power from the Abyss. Cody can do Logrus stuff but draw power directly from the Abyss instead of filtering it through the Logrus.
More homebrew than textbook.
Abyss travel is more hit/miss. A Run-away hell ride that only get to known Shadows or near unknown Shadows where he has to slow down and Shadow Tunnel to where he wants to go.
More refined travel is through more strenuous Shadow Tunneling.
More like broken Pattern travel.
The whole 'summoning Abyss creatures' is over the top. But yeeting someone into the Abyss is an option.
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Post by Admin on Feb 27, 2023 23:13:04 GMT
If Abyss power is good then why do the Lords of Chaos study Logrus instead? By internal logic of the game it must be weaker, yet looking at the numbers from the creating new powers section it is much more expensive.
Not trying to crap on it or nothing but it has to be fair to the other players who chose to spend points on their things. That's my answer to most people's inventions or ideas in the game.
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Feb 27, 2023 23:23:08 GMT
Then I've spent a lot of time and points barking up the wrong tree.
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Post by Admin on Feb 28, 2023 1:51:10 GMT
I wouldn't say so. Just need to find the limits. Logrus users can't bring friends along on trips either.
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Post by Hammett on Feb 28, 2023 2:13:53 GMT
Well we can break it down a bit and see what we can learn.
Create Abyss Opening - If the player is out in Shadow they can rip open a hole to the Abyss. Things that fall through end up in the Abyss, but also the user can draw power through the Abyss opening. -The second part sounds like the rules they use for Constructs where the owner(s) of a construct can use a focus to draw power from the construct source and boost their other abilities. In this case the Abyss user has to open rip open the portal to draw power from the Abyss. When the rip closes, or the user moves to far away from it they can't draw power from it any more. -The first part is straight forward, but potentially very powerful. Can the user rip open the portal beneath someone causing them to fall into the Abyss? If so, since the Abyss is very deadly to those not "attuned to it" then they can kill almost anyone in the game, unless the person has trumps to escape or shapeshift (and enough xp (15 pts)) to adapt themselves.
Protect Contents from the Abyss - When in the Abyss you can prevent people and objects from being destroyed by the Abyss energies. -Pretty straight forward.
Summon and Control Abyss Creatures - Like the name says, except it also say the creatures are harmless and basically non-sentient. An Abyss Master can mold them into Artifacts and other creatures powered by the Abyss. -Part one is pretty useless unless you summon hundreds of them to block someone's path, forcing them to hack through all the blobs until they get free. -Part two is interesting but it doesn't say how long it takes to make them or how powerful they can be. Conjuring has rules for creating items, but this doesn't say you need conjuring to make them. The Abyss Master uses this instead of conjuring maybe?
That is all the base 50 point power seems to give.
If the user also has Shapeshift they can:
Turn into fire form - Become untouchable, or burn whatever attempts to touch you. Pass through walls and objects. Do incredibly deadly damage to anyone you want by touching them. -Super overpowered. Can't be hit or injured by any physical attacks, but can kill pretty much anyone they can touch. They are in fire form, so I doubt eye-to-eye mental contact/domination could work against them because do they even have eyes in that form? And can't make physical contact to try and dominate them either. Only limit might be that they have to rip open a portal to the Abyss to draw the power from it, plus it doesn't say how much END it costs or how long they can maintain that form.
Turn to Ice Form - become cold and solid. Resistant to most/all damage. No need to breath, etc... -Not so bad, as I assume they can't move in that form, or are very, very slow (the description is they slow down all their molecules to be so solid and cold). But again no idea the END drain or costs, etc.. but at least the benefits are balanced by the drawbacks.
Advanced Abyss Powers (75 or 80 total cost. The rules can't even be bothered to give a set cost to it):
Corrupt/overwhelm trump - If the Advanced user also has Trump power they can override the trumps of anyone who is the Abyss. -Wow. That's isn't going to come up often, unless the adventure/campaign take the players into the Abyss. But I guess if the Abyss user can open a portal and drop people into the Abyss, then it becomes more useful. Drop their enemies in to the Abyss, then override their trumps so no one can save them, and they can't trump out.
Time Manipulation - Abyss user can speed up and slow down time around them if they open a portal (or are already in the Abyss). Can be used as an attack. -Another over powerful power/ability. Player controls time in their vicinity. Can't go back in time. But can freeze everyone around them, then kill them off one by one. Can speed up time and age people thousands of years in moments, basically killing all non-immortals instantly. Again, no idea hoe much Psych or END this requires or how easy it is to do.
Inflict Abyss Powers - In the Abyss the Abyss Master can take possession of characters and switch all their attributes and powers around and change their personalities. -Well I don't think I need to get into how insane this power is. Even if not used for "evil" and "winning the game" it can be a game disruptor if the person uses it for good. Player X wants to change some of their stats and powers? Remake their characters, well just go visit the Abyss Master in the Abyss and they can do all that for you.
How strong is the Abyss power vs the others?
Pattern is stronger unless in or next to the Abyss, and I guess also an Abyss portal? Which would technically be next to the Abyss, so Pattern would be weakened. But if no portal open then Pattern wins easily.
Logrus is completely dominated by the Abyss.
Trump is absolute defense against the Abyss powers.
And that is the breakdown.
So Abyss doesn't do all that much. Can't even travel through shadow (per RAW), but you can escape back to the Abyss from Anywhere in Shadow (I assume except close to Amber and the Pattern (or very near a broken pattern)) just by opening a portal and jumping through. Since Abyss is weak against Pattern until the portal is opened, probably means very hard or impossible to open a portal in Amber.
But the high cost is because what Abyss power can do dominates all the other powers in terms of shear damage/killing/destructive power, plus the ability to make unlimited Abyss powered artifacts, items and creatures.
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Post by Cody D'Avalon on Feb 28, 2023 4:24:27 GMT
All I was looking for is a Logrus Master / Pit-Diver.
Dress up the Logrus Tendrils to look like blue lighting instead of black ribbons.
All that invincibility stuff is too much.
Just like to be able to carry myself and a few close friends through the Abyss like a Pattern user would sail a ship through Shadow.
Create a reasonably sized bubble around the ship to protect it.
Maybe yeet a couple of bad guys through a rift once in a while.
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Post by Admin on Feb 28, 2023 5:23:55 GMT
It's easiest to just consider it Logrus reskinned. The lack of hanging spells and tendrils is replaced with bringing other characters along for the ride. So no need to calculate points or anything else.
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Post by Admin on Feb 28, 2023 5:27:05 GMT
The general idea of the rule set is great, but some specifics are strange/awful. The example first game with the PCs chained up in the dungeon, and Caine gets eaten by a monster? What the fuck is that? The elder descriptions, which everyone read first, are horrible to idiotic. The Abyss rules are the same kind of half thought out crap.
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